Building my full suspension enduro bike

Hello!
My name is Lin and recently I decided to make my own full suspension enduro bike.
I haven not really decided everything yet since I do not even know where to start but I am looking forward to using titanium/aluminum and carbon parts.
I was thinking for travel to be 170mm suspension.
For the linkage I was thinking to use a horst/4bar suspension linkage.
Altghough…!!!
I have so many questions on where to even start. My main concerns are:
•where should I even design how my frame will look like? (Is there a software?)
•how and for which parts do I determine all the dimensions and lengts of? I really have no idea what the lengts are supposed to be for each part.
•what else should I consider determining before I get to the actual designing?

I know I probably missed a ton of other things that matter

SHORTLY: Please just tell me where to start what to determine what are the exact steps.

I would really appreciate every bit of help to turn this dream into a reality
Thank you
Lin

Hello!
My name is Lin and recently I decided to make my own full suspension enduro bike.
I haven not really decided everything yet since I do not even know where to start but I am looking forward to using titanium/aluminum and carbon parts.
I was thinking for travel to be 170mm suspension.
For the linkage I was thinking to use a horst/4bar suspension linkage.
Altghough…!!!
I have so many questions on where to even start. My main concerns are:
•where should I even design how my frame will look like? (Is there a software?)
•how and for which parts do I determine all the dimensions and lengts of? I really have no idea what the lengts are supposed to be for each part.
•what else should I consider determining before I get to the actual designing?

I know I probably missed a ton of other things that matter

SHORTLY: Please just tell me where to start what to determine what are the exact steps.

I would really appreciate every bit of help to turn this dream into a reality
Thank you
Lin

1 Like

Exciting mate! I’d say a lot of the questions there would be answered by reading what is already written in other posts here. Lot’s of dual suss build threads.

As far as software goes it’s hard to go past BikeCAD. It doesn’t do rear suspension but is great for laying out your front traingle with relevant fit info. Then look at the program Linkage for ya rear setup. And maybe try to combine it all in a Fusion360 model. Lot’s of learning ahead of you. And you still have to fabricate the thing once ya done with all that design work. Good luck with it all.

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There are no exact steps, and there’s no sense in building what you can buy.

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If’n you have something you want to build, start sketching it out full scale side view. Ya gotta learn to draw first. That said, you might be a cad savant.

I would start with joining some tubes together and then move on to something simpler, like a regular bike (or a hard-tail) to get more of a feel for it. It may also influence the design if you know what materials and processes you are happy with first.

Interested to know myself what goes into the design of a rear suspension. The simplest is a “single pivot”, which is what a lot of even low-volume manufacturers like Starling seem to stick to.

Once you have a design I don’t think it’s especially harder to make though.

Hmmmm…this is like jumping in the deep end …in a hessian bag,with 20kg dumb bell…and hand cuffs. :grin:

Not to dissuade you but I would take a step back. The big issue you will have is lack of nuance for frame design. Suspension frames ahve a lot going that are details that don’t seem obvious at first but have huge impact on the outcome.

This would be my advice as a way of encouragement to start but also temper the expectations. This will be an exercise in patience and learning.

There are four main areas you will need to gain an understanding, especially if those topics are new to you.

Materials
Fabrication
Geometry
Suspension.

They can be broken down into lots of sub areas.

You’ll need to research materials. Pro’s and con’s of each and the merits of chossing a material. This ties in with fabrication because what resources and skills you have or willing to learn will determine what you use.

Geometry will require you to learn how each paramter has a flow on affect to the handling, ride and total package resultant. There is never a one size fits all and will tie back to material and fabrication in being able to achieve the geometry and architecture of the bike.

Finally the suspension design will determine the architecture which will have a bearing on geo and vice versa which will go a long way to deciding on materials and fabrication methods. The four bar is realatively easy to understand and tune and provides a great platform to design from. Go and read all the articles you can find on suspension. Get onto the Vorsprung website and read their notes on suspension. Get Linkage and sit and play with the layouts and tweak it until you have a feel for what changes you can make and what affect it has on teh kinematics.

Then you need to be able to draw or model it all up. BikeCAD is great for non suspension frames, same with RattleCAD. You can sit and tweak the numbers and see how it affects the whole package and start to gain some understanding. Though you need to have a good feel for what makes a good handling bike.

If you are doing a suspension bike then CAD is going to be your friend more than you’ll know. Learn Fusion 360 if you haven’t already. Get good at it.

Last bit of advice. Ignore trying to doing some thingh really cool and out there. Just stick with the proven concepts for the first one. Copy an existing bike for geo and layout and be prepared to spend many times more to make the bike than it would cost you to just buy it in the first place.

Like I said, definitely have a go but have your eyes wide open. It will be hard and costly. Have fun.

8 Likes

Hmmmm…this is like jumping in the deep end …in a hessian bag,with 20kg dumb bell…and hand cuffs. :grin:

Not to dissuade you but I would take a step back. The big issue you will have is lack of nuance for frame design. Suspension frames ahve a lot going that are details that don’t seem obvious at first but have huge impact on the outcome.

This would be my advice as a way of encouragement to start but also temper the expectations. This will be an exercise in patience and learning.

There are four main areas you will need to gain an understanding, especially if those topics are new to you.

Materials
Fabrication
Geometry
Suspension.

They can be broken down into lots of sub areas.

You’ll need to research materials. Pro’s and con’s of each and the merits of chossing a material. This ties in with fabrication because what resources and skills you have or willing to learn will determine what you use.

Geometry will require you to learn how each paramter has a flow on affect to the handling, ride and total package resultant. There is never a one size fits all and will tie back to material and fabrication in being able to achieve the geometry and architecture of the bike.

Finally the suspension design will determine the architecture which will have a bearing on geo and vice versa which will go a long way to deciding on materials and fabrication methods. The four bar is realatively easy to understand and tune and provides a great platform to design from. Go and read all the articles you can find on suspension. Get onto the Vorsprung website and read their notes on suspension. Get Linkage and sit and play with the layouts and tweak it until you have a feel for what changes you can make and what affect it has on teh kinematics.

Then you need to be able to draw or model it all up. BikeCAD is great for non suspension frames, same with RattleCAD. You can sit and tweak the numbers and see how it affects the whole package and start to gain some understanding. Though you need to have a good feel for what makes a good handling bike.

If you are doing a suspension bike then CAD is going to be your friend more than you’ll know. Learn Fusion 360 if you haven’t already. Get good at it.

Last bit of advice. Ignore trying to doing some thingh really cool and out there. Just stick with the proven concepts for the first one. Copy an existing bike for geo and layout and be prepared to spend many times more to make the bike than it would cost you to just buy it in the first place.

Like I said, definitely have a go but have your eyes wide open. It will be hard and costly. Have fun.

3 Likes

I am very thankful for all the information you just gave me. I know its a big pile of everything I have to research at the moment but I am willing to do it.
Also once I decide about the linkage and the dimensions, can I try out the linkage in any linkage softwares before actually going out to make the hardware?
So bike CAD would not be an option for making a full sus bike right?
Is Fusion 360 the only program I can use then?
Thank you for all the information you gave me, it means a lot!!

An invaluable resource when you’re ready to get down to the kinematic details.

2 Likes

You can get a personal use licence of Linkage. It will help figure out the locations of your pivot points as long as you know what you are looking at. It’s not perfect but it does save a bunch of work. Then you feed those dimensions into your CAD model and start figuring out the shapes of the frame components.

BikeCAD as awesome as it is will be hard to fully flesh out the architecture of the suspension platform. RattleCAD is a cheaper option, it’s pretty good but not quite as polished as BikeCAD. It’s a huge amount of work involved in getting these programs working and they both have imporoved their programs a lot over the years.

There are some free and cheaper 3d CAD programs around but Fusion is almost the default now like AutoCAD almost became default CAD program years ago. There are heaps on online tuturials and a big community of Fusion users so learning it will be easier. Though it has it’s quirks and it’s a monthly subscription. You can get that on sale though.

There are heaps of different programs on the market now but whatever you use needs to be able to export to Step and/or STL file formats for getting stuff made. There are other formats but again that is almost the industry default for file transfers etc.

I use plain old AuitoCAD becuase Im a 35 year career draftsman and am proficient in using it as well as Microstation and a few other programs. I ahv’t had the time to learn Fusion yet but am also looking at maybe other programs.

The modelling below is in AutoCAD for reference.

Fusion is great; lots of useful features - especially if you are CNC machining your own parts. CNC programing straight from Fusion is pretty straight forward.

That said, I’m too invested in SolidWorks (22 years) to use anything else. Their “Maker” version is only $48.00 per year.

If you get it, buy the “3DEXPERIENCE SOLIDWORKS for Makers”. You have to download it to your PC, but it is much better than the ‘cloud based’ version (imo).

SolidWorks has built some limitations into the software to prevent abuse of the “maker” program, but for your own work, you’ll have no problems.

Cheers,
KP

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thank you a lot for your reply. I get motivated seeing replies like yours!!!

so basically the best way would be setting up my front triangle and then using linkage to keind of get the rear triangle set up. then i can connct both pieces together in fusion right? Or is that just a dumb idea?

thank you I will definately have a look, how hard is it to actually learn it tho?

Hey, thanks a lot! The cad model you sent is very similar to what I was thinking of making myself! Are there any more of this models I could use for reference and just modify the things I want to change? Also how hard is it (be honest) to learn modeling like this on the pictures??
Thanks a lot
Lin

I would familiarize yourself with all those digital tools yep. They are fairly cheap and fun to learn even if you don’t build the bike any time soon. I can’t say what will be the best design process for you as that will depend on how you plan to fabricate the bike. Evey builder is different so there are no exact steps! But there are a lot of shared ideas. You’ll need to read through other posts for them.

If you don’t 100% know what you want up front (geo/materials/suspension kinematiecs) then you have a lot more learning ahead of you than I think you realise. If ya going into this thinking “I just wanna build a bike” then I would start with something a lot simpler than a dually for sure.

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If you have no 3D modelling experience then it’d be at least a few 100 hrs to get that good I reckon. There is a great Fusion360 tutorial thread on the forum, give that a go! A lot of people here who have advanced 3D modelling skills either do it professionally or have been working at it for a few years so be patient with yourself.

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I would start by learning bike geomtery and suspension kinematics before anything else to be honest. Your rear layout is going to affect how your front triangle will end up. Broadly speaking.

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I’ve posted a bit on my Insta so you can get some ideas from there. My geo chart is on my website plus you can look at geo charts on other brands websites as well. Start by working on a 2D plan of the geo and flesh it out from there. Look at the Trek, Norco, RAAW etc. for examples of good handling bikes with good suspension and go from there. You need to dive in and get your head into the numbers and compare between bikes so you can start to get a feel for the ‘envelope’ your want to work in. Read different reviews on teh bikes to see where they had good and bad points. Start seeing if you can have a quick ride on some different bikes to feel the differences. Even go and hire a bike similar to what you want to build and ride it. Then go hire another brands four bar and compare. Numbers on teh page don’t always 100% translate directly to the trail. Especially when you are learning the traits of changes.

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