Hi, I’m hoping I can do a little market research here and pick some brains.
A few years ago when I operated Shand Cycles, we tried a few back office systems for managing the business, nothing really worked the way we wanted them to do, or were expensive or too complicated or there was some other problem so I eventually bit the bullet and developed something myself. Before I was a framebuilder I was a programmer so this wasn’t really a leap and I’d worked on many systems similar to the one I ended up writing.
I still use that piece of software now for my own business and it’s been constantly developed over a few years. I actually sold a version to a UK motorcycle manufacturer who then recommended it to a European manufacturer and these installations are still in use today.
For the past couple of years I’ve been thinking about offering it to the framebuilding community. I’d love to get some feedback to see if it might be something worth pursuing.
Key features :
Browser based (you don’t need to install anything onsite)
Order management
usual stuff, managing customer details, bike details, costs, addresses etc
Scheduling support
Calendar system for managing order lifecycles etc
I’m interested in what other people are doing. Other software? Spreadsheets? Nothing?
I imagine this would be a subscription based service. It would be hosted by me (in a proper facility with excellent uptime and backup etc) and would be charged with a monthly fee. It could potentially be sold as a licence based system that you could install on a server on your own but that’s less attractive as a model for me.
What are your thoughts? If it’s the sort of thing you’d be interested in, what roughly would you expect to spend (monthly or annually). Obviously I’ve given a very loose outline of features but are there specific things that people would like to see? Integrations to other software/systems perhaps?
Certainly open to having a look at it. I’d argue I don’t have the through put currently to need it but then, it’s not something you’d implement when it was really needed either. Too late then. Better to have a run up with to when it becomes an asset.
On the one hand it’s for me the same as for Devlin. Not enough turnover.
On the other hand, I don’t like neither browser based software nor subscriptions with monthly/annual payments. I do prefer perpetual licenses for locally installed software. I do not want to share my stuff with other people, especially my customers’ personal data. And my experince with subscriptions is, their prices grow faster than the functions, and when you stop paying, you get rid all of your data.
But your key features are the key features I would expect. Maybe add accounting with invoices?
Thanks for the feedback. I don’t see this working out financially for builders building less than about 20 bikes a year.
I hear your thoughts on subscription/hosted vs installed/perpetual licence. To make it affordable, a hosted version is way cheaper for the developer (and the user). Mainly due to maintenance and upgrade costs. A hosted subscription model means it only has to work on one platform, testing is drastically reduced. Upgrades and new features can be rolled out globally without user intervention. Another benefit of the web-based browser application is that it can be used anywhere. I have a computer in my workshop but most admin is done in my office. It’s great to be able to access the same things from both sites.
I understand the feelings towards subscription services, the mindset of not owning anything but just paying to use isn’t something I’m a fan of in many things but software as a service makes sense to me. I just want to use the product, I don’t want to take on the headaches of security, performance, backups, downtime etc. I just want the thing to work so I can do my work.
I’d need to do the sums but expect that the sort of cost I’d be proposing monthly/annually would be less than the depreciation of an installed product. But I get that it’s not for everyone.
I should mention that all data is exportable so you’d never have anything locked away in a proprietary format. You’d need to work out what to do with it all but it could at the very least, be opened as a spreadsheet.
Lastly, I have thought about accounting features and invoicing but instead I’ve worked on integration to the accountancy software I use in the business (Xero). I expect most people already use some kind of bookkeeping software so I don’t really want to re-invent that wheel. I should say that the Xero integration isn’t ready for public release, it’s just something I wrote for my own use.
This sounds amazing. Software for framebuilders (& bike manufacturers) developed by a framebuilder!
I can only compare with what we use at my day job and on paper it has all the features you’d want, but it definitely has its limitations and is sometimes super frustrating for us. The name of the software is Cin7 Core (formerly DEAR inventory), prior to that we used TradeGecko but we had to swap as it was discontinued.
Features I’d like to see in addition to what you’ve listed (I’m assuming some of the “etc’s” in your list may cover some of this), are:
Invoicing & automated sheduled invoicing (we offer bikes on a “subscription” model for local customers), even if that’s through integration with other software
Serial number tracking (serial number sequence entered upon receiving inventory, and possibility to assign a serial number to a sales order/invoice
Integration with web shops (Shopify for example)
Import/export of BOMs etc via CSV files
These are the things I could come up with off the top of my head. I checked with our fulfilment and inventory manager and she only wanted to add was API access to be able to integrate it into other systems. She said that’s the catchall that makes it work.
Thanks. As I said in an earlier message, I’m unlikely to offer accountancy/bookkeeping functionality in the system. There is basic reporting included but I feel like general bookkeeping will generally be done elsewhere.
Serial number tracking is an interesting one. Right now serial numbers are only used per bike order. There is a master framenumber that can be assigned to a bike/frame order and then any number of additional serial numbers can be added to that order for any parts/components that have their own serial number. These component serial numbers aren’t tracked until they get allocated into a BOM.
Web shop integration. I’m not sure what that would look like. Or what the requirement would be. Using the API it would certainly be possible to add an order to the system that had been generated externally, capturing the product and customer info.
BOMs, purchase orders, stock lists etc can all be exported as CSV files at the moment.
API access is something that is undergoing a bit of a rewrite. A downside to the product being under development for so long means that there are a few areas that could be streamlined and made more consistent. API access is one of those areas. My aim would be to make every part of the system having an open and published API.
I would be interested in a trial or seeing the interface if you’re willing to share. Browser based is not a pro for me, since all my work is done from one desktop computer, but I get that it’s easier and it’s not a dealbreaker either.
My business is not custom orders (like framebuilding), but a growing product line. Which to me sounds more in line with what you’re proposing to offer, than it might to someone only making custom items - I think few people are making custom bikes at volumes where a spreadsheet system is not enough to keep up. For supplies, physical methods are often enough IMO, although easily automating re-ordering processes is certainly a benefit.
Currently I use physical methods (Kanban) and my brain and spreadsheets. I hope my business will never grow to the size where the cost of a full blown ERP makes sense. I am in a liminal space where things are manageable but if I want to grow a bit more I know it’s going to get challenging to manage it well. Right now I might spend UP TO ~$200 a year for a solution with inventory management able to pull the CSV from my webstore (it doesn’t have financial info so I wouldn’t be as worried about security), dissect BOM based on product names, subtract from inventory counts, let me set custom yellow and red warninings for low stock per whole product (where multiple products share a component) and per component. I only generate POs for one vendor and I don’t keep in-process inventory so it doesn’t make much of a difference to me if that’s integrated to the check-in process or not.
I would expect to keep invoicing for wholesale orders through my book keeping software (hate quickbooks, moving to wave for 2025, open to other suggestions), but it would be really cool if the inventory software could also take the product sales numbers (from the web store CSV) and generate some charts. You can never have enough charts.
With fusion, book keeping, adobe, web hosting, and a potential inventory solution that’s about $1k per year in software which feels like my comfort limit at this stage.
Thanks Steven for your explanations, they convinced me. I didn’t think on your side and all the different OSs and and … (Just trying to get my good old Xerox Phaser working with a new macOS, no new driver since late 2014.)
I’ve been using Odoo (free version) installed locally for a while now, and it really works great.
It’s not an easy installation, but once it’s done it’s worth it because it has a lot of options.
It has stock control, production orders and everything necessary from my point of view.
One of the details that I really like is that when you create an invoice for the purchase of products that have customs duties, you can add them as a percentage to the cost of each product.
Hi @stevenshand
Thanks for your post. I’m interested in either way, stand alone or SaaS. We are starting a project called VELOCTOPUS to produce steel frames for other brands in small batches (10 to 20 per order). With this, we have tried both ODOO and ERPNEXT but now adapting NOTION to manage our business as the out of the box solutions are too much and learning curve is bigger than we want to spend time with.
I share our needs so that you can see if they make sense to integrate in any way with what you are planning.
We need a simple project management for our work. Besides the normal client management, calendar and schedule, we use this to list the full BOM on materials and operations sequence and duration to provide a better quote. I can share a file with you if interested. As we are cutting tubes with a laser setup assembled in a robotic arm, every project has specific code scripts and drawings for production that should be linked in any way.
We are working with a Brazilian company to use their Digital Passport to manage serial number and quality tracking for the frames we make for our clients. It can be interesting to integrate.
The link with invoicing does not make sense for us as there are some specific requirements in invoicing software from local tax authorities.
If you need a beta tester and some input for development, we are interested in helping out. For us, the key points is being easy to use and minimal looking.
