Matt Chester!!! Hahahahhah. Needed that.
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Just to add to Bruceās legacy, I guess and ramble a bit, I was at U of O in Eugene in 1981 when I saved my pennies and bought a custom frame, which was built for another person that returned it, from Bruce. I hung that bike in my bedroom, rode it a ton, and eventually sold it - big regret there.
That bike inspired me to build frames and start Co-Motion with Dwan. Over the years I became good friends with Bruce through his personal and professional ups and downs. With my job at Moots I supplied him with ti tubing for several of his projects, sometimes āforgettingā to bill him and spent many long phone conversations with him, as well as hung out with him at tradeshows. Among other things, we discussed the business end of things and his frustration with why BG Cycles wasnāt a sellable business.
When Dwan and I started Co-Mo we very purposely named the company something other than one, or both, of our names. We had the goal of building a business. The many years of living on nothing and working 6 days a week, doing whatever work we could get to make a buck, eventually paid off. Donāt get me wrong, not in my seven years, but with the base the three of us built, Dwan and Dan built what you see today, a strong brand and a stable business.
While at Moots I learned more about the business end of things. My goal was to elevate the product to the highest level to give the brand more value but I would talk to Bruce about the financial end of things and that if someone were to buy his business they wanted to see profit, growth and potential. This was how we approached the sale of Moots for the previous owner while I was there. It worked out for the previous owner (not so much for me), the guy who bought it has since sold most of it and from what I guess made good money on it.
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HAHAHA! Alex, I was just remembering/thinking of that the other day. Good chuckle now, though it really pissed me off when I discovered that particular problem on my own bike. 
-Jim G
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Enjoying and learning from this thread.
The last time Minneapolis held the MinneCycle local framebuilding show (2017), a couple local builders reached out and invited me. I showed up at one of the early planning meetings for the show and found myself walking into a spirited conversation about how new builders/amateur builders/hobbyists were a plague and stealing others business. Over the course of planning and setting up the show that same group of builders complained about the issue of the shrinking framebuilder scene- framebuilders in the mpls area leaving the business and not being replaced. Since that show several Minneapolis area framebuilders have closed or reduced their operations, and to my knowledge they are not being replaced at the pace they depart. Maybe it is a market correction, or a result of culture, local wages, or from a local scene that openly disparaged young/new builders as imposters and fakes.
I do think there is a real genuine issue with price suppression and the devalue of our labor when some people are able to sell without making a profit, and after a decade trying to make money in frames and the bike industry in general I really see the issue of the general undervaluing of our labor and product. I once shared a studio space with a builder who though I was too pricey and undercut my frame repair prices and it drove me nuts. But, and for me this is a big but - every expert was a new builder at some point, and new builders canāt charge the same thing as 30 year experts.
When I was first building, after a few practice frames I couldnāt afford to build for free- I just told customers the truth. Iād tell them why their frame was lower cost than other builders; I was new and inexperienced. Iād do my best to communicate the trade-offs and they could decide if they wanted the deal from the newbie or the sure thing from a more established builder. Now years later and still learning all the time, I continue to raise my prices but it seems to me that it is a process of becoming an established expert with the ārightā prices, rather than a binary before & after benchmark we pass by. I donāt think I can at this stage charge what Weigle or Brian Chapman are able to charge for their bikes, even if I build bicycles inspired by them and others like them, I just donāt have the reputation or the experience, my frames still arenāt in the same league as theirs, and customers can figure that out pretty easily as they shop around. Paul Wyganowski gave me this warning toward the end of my class/apprenticeship in 2011; āwhen you start building for money at first you will be in this odd spot of not being able to charge what the pros do, but also all the work will will take longer than it takes the pros. Youāll be working longer and for less while you build a reputation and skill setā
It seems to me that the other entanglement here is that we are talking about furthering/maintaining a craft as well as an industry/market, and the two are not the same thing. Some folks are talking about one or the other, some are interested in both. They are certainly entangled, but different.
I appreciate everyoneās previous thoughts on this topic. I havenāt been sure this year that I can keep slogging along trying to make this business work (itās my full time job, but I take random labor gigs like construction demolition to make needed extra cash) and this thread is helping my mind gears move.
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Here is a great piece from Pi at Clandestine:
100% agree on all their points:
- framebuilding is only financially viable in very small niches
- Custom bikes should not be used as a platform to promote production bikes at these shows
To add my own salt to this dish, these custom bike events are hosted under the pretense of āhelping the little guy,ā but in reality, they serve as platforms for bigger bike companies. Small builders have to shell out thousands of dollars to attend these events and donāt see any ROI. It is a multi-level marketing scheme.
I think framebuilding needs to take after the Maker Movement of the 2010ās and build foundations to keep framebuilding as a hobby. This forum is a great example where āthe hobbyistsā are doing wildly creative and technically precise work.
The economics of framebuilding are shifting as well. Steel bikes are not profitable, period. High-quality steel tubing and castings are only being made in Taiwan and Italy. However, the number of production steel bikes are diminishing, and so is the steel supply chain.
Titanium bike production has shifted to Xian, China, where the countryās Titanium industry is located. Because of that, they have more equipment, scale, and lower overheads, which has significantly driven down the manufacturing cost of titanium frames.
In 2024, once you factor in paint (for steel), a titanium and steel frameās bill of materials are almost the same. Yet the consumer is happy to pay 2-3x more for a titanium frame. You must build titanium frames in order to be profitable as a framebuilding business.
Honestly, this grind has been burning me out in the past year. So many things in the bike industry and framebuilding donāt make sense, but I donāt have the influence (yet) to call it out and change it.
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Interesting article indeed, and hitting close to homeā¦ Weāve been at the Eurobike Handmade area for a day and a half 2 weeks ago and that was great. Pricing of the stand was excellent, and there was the opportunity to network with the world. We were also invited to join Bespoked Dresden last year and while we thought it would be an amazing experience we in the end didnāt go. Mostly because when we calculated the total cost of driving across Germany, get a half decent BnB and pay the stand we came around ā¬ 5.000,- for the whole package. Thatās a lot of bikes that we need to sell to pay for thatā¦ At Eurobike I also had several people telling me they were quite dissapionted with the coverage of theif very well made but not extremely loud bikes. It seems the media favours the wild and extreme, which means that as a builder of refined yet understated bikes you get overlookedā¦
If money is the main factor you will always loose to the far East. They make better bikes faster and way cheaper. So we donāt try to do that. While we are still in the starting phase of a lot of stuff we see that you can bind people with personal service, even if the bike is not extremely custom or even small batch, from european steel. That being said, I have decided to do the truly custom stuff only a couple of times a year, just for the fun of it and spend most of my days building the āboringā bikes that we mostly sell as complete bikes. On top of that we have a showroom where we also sell the better end of ānormalā bikes (Orbea for instance) so we can attract people, generate easy money and maybe sell some of our own stuff.
But Iāll admit there are enough days where I wonder if I should get an easy normal 9-5 job and have time to go out ridingā¦
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Thanks for sharing.
I agree with this sentiment as well. The media is biased toward crazy frame builds, fancy paint, and expensive build kits. But that stuff takes a huge chunk of time and is not what customers want to buy.
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Ditto, to everything you guys are saying. Just spent a small fortune, Aus$7k, to go to our two shows last month and feck all coverage and zero enquiries so far. I donāt want to do the shows anymore. Iām done. That money Iāll put into building a demo fleet and go do a road trip once a year to the bigger riding areas when events are on and let people try my bikes out. To me would be a much better way to attract customers than trying to stand out against the gawdy gimmicks of the bigger industry. Just about to position myself at the base of one of the biggest bike parks in Australia purely for the exposure to the customers I am trying sell bikes to.
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Works both ways - plenty of us 9-5ers dream of having a cool job where we get to play with bikes all dayā¦
As far as shows go, as a punter I always felt they were more like a classic car show than a trade show. You go to admire all the amazing things that people have made, take some photos, chat to some nice folk. Maybe youāre in the market for a new bike and do some research, but mainly itās about the bling and fancy paint and crazy one-offs. Remember that kids trike that Vanilla won NAHBS with one yearā¦
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I donāt know the situation down in your neck of the woods, but in the US, there are several events that cater to demoing bikes (Outerbike has 3 events in Crested Butte, Moab, and Bentonville and there are others like Sedona Mountain Bike Festival). When my company surveys recent purchases, itās surprising to see the uptick in sales immediately after one of those demo type events where the customer bought the bike they rode at the demo. So Iād say itās for sure worth it to have demo bikes.
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Thanks for the industry insight @Daniel_Y. I guess that explains what seems like a constant trickle of press releases touting new titanium hardtails.
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Yep, Iāve always felt it was a better way of getting to my market. I definitely notice an uptick in engagement when I go to an event even just to race for myself, so it seems like going with a marquee, have a few bikes and let people do the whole touch feel and ride thing is a way better of getting some stoke for my bikes. Only problem is the cost for setting up each bike when you are bootstrapping. Itās impossible to do. I have loaned my bike out where I can locally but that has only so much reach too.
The big news for me though is I am relocating to Maydena Bike Park. It will mean I get to camp my business and products right under the nose of the people I am trying to sell my bikes too. Plus I get to ride amazing trails everyday. So rather than spending money on shows I will be investing into relocating and setting up a pro level workshop.
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Livinā the dream!
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MTB trails donāt get much better. Enjoy!
Also, some nice super gnar stuff will be close by behind the cascade brewery
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Iāll definitely be seeking out the secret squirrel tech stuff. Being able to just disappear into the hills as well will be awesome.
Great insight from Kris at 44 Bikes:
https://www.44bikes.com/uncategorized/the-business-of-framebuilding/
An excerpt:
You may ask what is my advice to all of my fellow framebuilders reading this? In the present: Simply to do your best work. Let that work reflect a higher standard that is infused with the integrity we offer to the community. Your work can speak for itself. Have the patience and the determination to foster that actualization. Do not place all of your eggs in one basket that is the show format. Support and attend the shows you believe in and reach out to the organizers how we can collectively make these shows better. But also foster new relationships and rekindle old relationships moving forward. And for those of you in the industry at large? Become familiar with, understand and respect what it is the framebuilding community brings to the table. Let us not collectively devalue what āhandmadeā has come to represent within the framebuilding community. We can do this and be mutually successful so long as we work together.
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Yep, heās pretty much hit the nail fair and square on the head. He is a very smart operator.
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Iāve been hesitant to weigh in on this topic for lots of reasons, but this is something Iāve been thinking about a lot lately, and I still feel like I have a bit of an outsiderās perspective on the framebuilding scene, so I thought Iād try to add to the discussion.
My background is in the mountain biking side of the sport where framebuilding has more of a āgarage projectā flavor. People mostly seem to be making stuff for fun, or to try out a new suspension design or geometry concept, rather than to make a go of it as a business. Iāve always been peripherally aware of the drop-bar world where the hand built āindustryā seems to be concentrated, but never really paid too much attention until I started riding a bit of gravel and beginning my own framebuilding project a couple years ago.
I say this only to offer one personās perspective, not to poke fun or belittle anyone: prior to paying more attention to the hand built scene a couple years ago, it always seemed kind ofā¦ quaint? I donāt know what the right word is exactly but in my brain it was situated closer to the people carving wooden pipes than the mainstream cycling world.
I know that sounds harsh, and I certainly wouldnāt lump all builders into that category, but it has been strange to hear people talk about how hard it is to make money when their extremely expensive product with a long lead time targets a niche category (X subgenre of cycling) in a niche industry (hand built bicycles) in a niche sport (riding bikes). If my ballpark math is correct you donāt need to sell a huge number of bikes to make a decent living, but the number is big enough that you need to target riders with somewhat mainstream inclinations. And the money is only in complete builds unless youāre doing crazy volume or high-end Ti.
So, I donāt know. The bike business is in a tough spot right now and itās not like itās easy to run a business even when times are good, but sometimes I wonder if builders are clear-eyed about the math/marketing problem in front of them.
Re: Shows. Iām fortunate to be able to attend the builder round-up that ENVE hosts most years, and it is truly humbling to see the quality of work that some of the best in the business are putting out. Bikes that look really good online are 10x better in person, and I bet most of those builds would still stand out and be desirable in a room filled with S-Works whatevers.
I think if I was exhibiting at one of the shows, and the booth next to me was hawking similar looking bikes produced in Taiwan, I would feel like they were freeloading on my good work and undercutting my business.
But since Iām not in that situation, I actually think it could be a good thing? I think the hand built scene really needs to grow its audience, and one of the ways to do that is to get new eyes on the products (like I said before, it is amazing to see the builds in person - a totally different effect). Having people attend shows that are interested in bike stuff generally is probably only a good thing. Having high-quality, affordable metal bikes that can show people they are a viable riding solution is probably only a good thing.
I bet most people slowly move upmarket with successive bike purchases, and if they do so starting from one of the Taiwanese Sklars for example, to me it makes sense that the likelihood they choose a custom builder for a later purchase is greater. Maybe itās three, five, or ten years down the road, but growing stuff takes time. Bikes at that price point are in a totally different segment of the market than āhand builtā stuff if youāre trying to run a viable business, so Iām not sure theyāre stealing any customers.
Maybe if the shows hired dedicated photographers (not just outside media) and hosted galleries of every builder on a permanent website that could make attending more worthwhile? It seems like one of the major rewards of attending is the potential media coverage, but at least at MADE last year I know some attendees got little to no coverage in any outside media.
Regarding ROI, Iāve always felt that with purchases I make it takes several positive impressions to push me over the edge. So, attending a show if you donāt already have a professional website, hosting professional photographs of your bikes, with high quality copy and graphic design, you might not be allocating your funds in the best way. I think builders really underestimate the impact a good website can make on sales. A bad website will really tarnish my impression of a company, regardless of the quality of the product, but maybe Iām just particular in that way.
Anyway, hopefully I havenāt thoroughly offended everyone that bothered to read this whole thing, but I thought Iād provide the perspective of someone who is relatively new to the scene. I think from inside the fish tank itās easy to forget how this stuff looks from the outside.
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Thatās a great post man and I think I pretty much agree with your take. Itās not harsh to point out that what we do is, as you put it, quaint to the main market. I am firmly in the pocket you described. Hand made suspension mtb in steel in a slowdown market in Australia. It doesnāt get more niche and obscure than that.
Both shows here in Melbourne, Australia had dedicated photographers and Dave Rome from Escape Collective was there as well. there were some great galleries put up but by and large the media coverage I thought was not what was promised. We were told that Pinkbike was going to post up a gallery but it has not eventuated. John Watson was at made.bike Australia and had decent coverage of the show and I have a bunch of amazing photos to use but I only saw one article in the press hilighting one builder. Without the media coverage promoting our brands and products is always going to be hard. Media websites though rely on click through traffic to survive. They get wayyyy more click throughs on a mainstream brand than they do on our small obscure brands so they concentrate their energies on teh bigger brands. Itās just a commercial reality. Made.bike is trying to correct some of that but they only have so much clout in getting the main stream media to take notice.
As for number of bikes to survive, my number is 20 per yearā¦and even then Iām only just making minimum wage.
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I appreciate the post, and I donāt think anyone would take offense; it is very insightful. Most people on this forum are hobbies or aspiring framebuilders.
IMO, this is the hardest balance to achieve. Passion drives creativity, and creativity manifests new designs, bikes, and genres. However, passion does not lead to good business choices.
Successful āframebuildersā sell titanium gravel bikes with fancy finishes, because that is what the consumer wants. That does not lead to designs, better fits, new voices.
I have been trying to find the correct ratio between commercial success and building and designing bikes I think are innovative and cool.
These discussions on the business of framebuilding have helped me hone in on the root problem: the commercialization of framebuilding.
- You shouldnāt need to sell frames to the public to be considered a part of the framebuilding community
- Bike industry should not use framebuilders to promote products
I think those two things drive the churn of new builders, who are simply following the path created for them.
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