Titanium bikes: glueing in bosses and guides?

I’ve been building quite a bit titanium frames lately and while do very much enjoy welding ti the one thing where I miss a bit of silverbrazing is with the bottlebosses and cableports. Welding is of course very doable, but especially with the cableports behind the headtube I am always wondering a bit if heating up this area with a hole in it is the best solution.
Seeing how more and more frame are being glued together these from carbon, titanium and aluminium made me wonder is desiging a nice snug fitting 3d printed titanium cableport (Or would aluminium even be an option?) and then use a proper strong adhesive to glue it into the frame. Same for the bottlebosses, I am thinking to make them with a nice big curved flange for max surface area and then glue them in.

Anyone here have any experience or knowledge on this topic? Advice on which adhesive to use?

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I’ve actually been looking into this quite a bit recently as part of some work on bonded titanium/carbon and Ti-Ti bonding frame construction.

My feeling is that something like a cable port is probably a very good candidate for adhesive bonding. Bottle bosses are slightly more complicated, because although they’re obviously not primary structural joints, a full bottle bouncing around on rough ground can put a surprising amount of cyclic and peel load into the boss.

The main thing I’ve taken away from looking into structural bonding is that you really need to design the part as a bonded joint rather than simply replacing the weld with glue.

Adhesives generally like large areas loaded in shear and don’t like peel loads or stress concentrations. So for a printed cable port or bottle boss I’d be looking at a decent flange/overlap, radiused transitions and ideally some geometry that gives a degree of mechanical retention as well. A sort of top-hat shaped bottle boss with a large curved flange could work nicely.

I also wouldn’t make the fit too snug. You actually want a small, controlled bond line rather than a press fit which squeezes all the adhesive out.

Surface preparation seems to be absolutely critical with titanium: degrease, mechanically abrade/grit blast the bonding surface, clean again and bond reasonably soon afterwards. There’s plenty of aerospace history of bonding titanium successfully, but the reliability seems to depend heavily on preparation and joint design rather than simply choosing the strongest epoxy.

For adhesive I’d be looking at a toughened structural 2-part epoxy rather than a general-purpose epoxy. Something along the lines of 3M DP490/DP420/DP460 or Loctite EA 9466 would be where I’d start, then speak to the adhesive manufacturer about the exact application. 3M actually publishes titanium test data for DP490, so this isn’t particularly exotic territory.

Personally I’d probably stick with titanium for the printed inserts rather than aluminium. In theory the adhesive layer can electrically isolate aluminium from titanium, but once you introduce water ingress at the edge of the joint you’ve potentially created a galvanic corrosion problem that doesn’t really need to exist. Adhesive bonding is commonly used to isolate dissimilar metals, but maintaining that isolation is part of the joint design.

The other advantage, as you say, is avoiding another weld/HAZ around a hole in an already busy area such as behind the head tube. I don’t think welding a properly designed port there is inherently problematic, but bonding gives you another way of doing it without introducing heat or distortion.

Cable ports I’d be pretty comfortable experimenting with. Bottle bosses I’d want to make some test pieces and properly abuse them first — pull-out, sideways loading and repeated cyclic loading with a weighted cage — but I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with the idea if the boss and bond are designed together.

All this is purely theoretical from an experience perspective…but might be a good starter for others?

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thanks for the extensive write up! Bosses might indeed be a bit more tricky, but I’m gonna try and machine a couple with a nice big flange that follows the tube. Will be an experiment for the future!

But I’ll have some cableports 3d printed in titanium and glue them in and post back here to see how it goes!

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Part of the reason for welding/brazing on those is to get back the strength you lost by drilling the hole. Glue has nothing like the material strength of either (but can be used to make good joints with enough surface area). So I would be hesitant. However, it’s also quite likely it would be strong enough with an untreated hole anyway. I don’t know Ti. It would certainly be extremely sketchy on a steel frame, especially for the upper hole on the DT which is usually outside the butt.

I’ve built a couple of titanium bikes with indeed just a hole milled in the tube and a bolt on cableguide. Not my personal favorite solution as I prefer to braze in something on my own steel frames. However all these frame have stood the test of time (at least 5 years) while being used as hard ridden MTB’s. Yet still I prefer something sturdier, so my own designed ti frames have a welded on cableguid to reinforce the hole.
Talking to a bunch of other builders (Frameworks, Kavenz among others) and hearing their good experiences with glueing stuff made we wonder my above question. I agree you need enough surface area to have any structural effect, but that’s easily achievable with 3d printing these days.

But I do very much brazing on these titanium frames. :wink: Adding a drop of silver to a bottleboss versus making a tiny yet tricky weld that takes quite a bit more time.

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You can braze titanium - it’s not hard and you don’t need any special equipment at all.

Just kidding, it’s an actual nightmare.

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Dammit, now I really want to try brazing titanium!

Cicli Ottotubi has done similar to carbon tubing. Craftmanship is quite high!!!

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ddrgxe_EZ5h/?stkn=anNnZDZjZ3NiczIx

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